PART TWO - BWBT MEETING OVERVIEW - JULY 1, 2008
The Second of two parts
I’m going to try and condense the remainder of the BWBT July 2 meeting synopsis into one blog entry. Not all comments will be covered in full, but I’ll try and include an overview of the topics that were discussed. Please see my previous blog entry (part one) for a list of those in attendance.
Andy Harding – I’m glad to hear that you (the BLM) are so concerned about wildlife issues, as I’ve made written comments about that issue – I’m very concerned about the idea of trails development near Quigley Canyon in Hangman’s and Deadman’s Gulch, which are prime wildlife habitat.
Up Bullion, there is a mining site that is looking junky to me – it goes on for a quarter or a third of a mile. It seems to me that something like that would be a much higher concern to our community than a trail that has been built. It seems like that material could almost be considered a hazard to safety in some regards.
If some of the old two-tracks that are all around could be utilized – could be left alone and allowed to grow back into a more single-track experience that might be useful.
Lori Armstrong – BLM Field Office Mgr. – that is the type of information we need as we look at the travel plan. Some of the old mining roads need to remain because we need to continue to provide access, but we can write the travel plan in such a way to reflect the wishes of the community. We have a set amount of roads – how do we use those miles of roads?
Andy Harding – It has been frustrating to see some of the roads around Bellevue getting graded by the County every five years or so – just when they were starting to grow in and get to be more trail-like. The argument from the County at the time of some of this grading was that they needed to maintain these roads to provide for fire access, but seeing how those bulldozers were used during the Castle Rock Fire – they can get up anything – they don’t need a graded road.
Joel Zeller – What has the BLM built to benefit the citizens of Hailey – what trails have you built?
John Kurtz – We haven’t built any trails.
Joel – That might answer Larry’s question from earlier when he asked why is the level of frustration so high? We are trying to reduce our impact on the environment, by riding our bikes to access recreation opportunities, but we need to drive north to get a good ride in. We have all this land down here. You said earlier that nothing was legally accessible down here. Your telling me that none of the roads up Democrat, Bullion, Rocky Canyon – there is no legal access off of those roads.
John K – There are a few County Roads – Democrat, Bullion, Kelly, Red Elephant, Rock Creek, and Croy Creek of course. Other than that there is no legal access to BLM land.
Joel – But we can use those to access BLM land.
John K – Yes, but in many instances, for the first several miles on those County roads you are not stepping off of the road onto BLM land, you are stepping onto private property.
Joel – So if we are looking at closing this trail, and parts of it have been there for a long time, why aren’t we looking at closing all of the trails? Why are we picking on this one trail that happens to be one of the most beautiful trails we have in the south valley? I can’t speak to the private property part of it – that wasn’t right to go through someone’s private property, but why would the BLM want to close the part that goes over BLM land? Why are you picking on just one trail?
Lori – It is a tough call, but it all boils down to the idea that if something is user built – be it a trail, a road, a waterway, and power line, whatever. If it is user built then it is illegal. And it is a fine line between calling something user built, and something that is created by use. It is the use of tools and the deliberate moving of soil when it comes to trails – if soil has been moved it is considered user-built versus being created by use. That is our concern – getting trails built where there is actual construction – that can’t happen without authorization.
John K – I’ll add one thing – the many roads we see around here came into existence from mining and agricultural and livestock purposes. Those have almost all been user-created. But this is now; we don’t live in an earlier time when we can just do what we want as far as building what we want on public land. If we did, we would have a trail in every drainage, and they wouldn’t take into account sustainability, or wildlife, or a multiple use approach to public land use. We now have to take a more planned approach.
Joel – How long do we have to wait? That is why people are so bummed out – we have to drive somewhere to go play. And I think that defeats the purpose of living here. I feel the BLM and perhaps the Forest Service are neglecting the south valley. When I ride Fisher Creek or the trails around Ketchum they are great, and in great shape.
Andy – This is where the population is – and we’re talking about a whole new network of trails at Galena?
Ed Cannady – I read the blogs and it was brought up that, “when is the BLM and Forest Service going to do something that serves this community.” So building trails is the only thing we can do to serve this community? Helping to provide power lines, airports, fire suppression, water developments, that’s not serving the community?
John Kurtz – Consider that there are miles of roads to ride and run in the south valley – if the private property owners whose land these roads cross allow you to continue to use them. Granted, it is not the single-track experience you may desire most, but you have a lot of opportunities to recreate here.
Joel – I’m just trying to help address Larry’s earlier question about why the level of frustration is so high – we are wanting to ride and run close to town and we have to drive north to get on good single-track trails.
Lori – This goes to why the BLM is so far behind the Forest Service on trails. Our BLM areas have miles upon miles of roads. Relatively - the forest has never had that many roads – trails were built to access mining claims and trapping areas. Here, roads were built, and that is the development pattern we have been dealt. Previously, in earlier days, the BLM has not been asked to provide trails, there were so many roads accessing places that people weren’t seeking out ways to get into them. The BLM is behind the Forest Service.
Renee Catherin – Trail Coordinator for the Ketchum Ranger District - I live down here and I can hike and horseback ride everywhere – but I can understand that if you mountain bike and are looking for single-track you won’t necessarily find what you are looking for in the south valley yet. But if you want to see that experience developed down here you have to take your time and do it right. The more of a hurry you get in the more problems you’re going to have.
We’ve been spending the last 15 years taking an iron and straightening out that mess up north that you now like. It did not start out as a nice system. Butch Harper and David Gordon and others at the Forest Service created a nice system. It was by the sweat of their brow and took incredible foresight to make it happen. Its reroute after reroute. So it has taken an incredible amount of thought and work to put it right. It has taken a long time to set it straight.
I would caution you to not get in a hurry. You will have something beautiful if you work together with the private property owners and land managers - if you address it as a group and don’t create a plate of spaghetti.
I would caution against building all your trails with machines. You get something special with hand built trails. A machine doesn’t run the way a human runs, so you aren’t going to get the same effect. Trails can be like fine wine – it takes time and you get out of it what you put in. And we can bulldoze in a bunch of trails quickly, but you aren’t going to get the best product. And if you have to go with low bid your not going to get hand-built trails, because we are looking at about $26,000 per mile for hand built trails - typically you are looking at around $10,000 per mile for machine built trails. If you are going with low bid you are going to get machine built trails. If you want hand built trails I’d love to meet with volunteers who are interested in doing that work.
Jay Sevy – Manger of Deer Creek Ranch – I’d like to add some perspective from the view of a private property owner. Unauthorized use and trespass does not sit well with private property owners, and in particular the owner of Deer Creek Ranch – he’s concerned about it. I would caution everyone who is interested in the trails to take a little longer to look at things. I think you will find that most landowners will be cooperative if you work with them.
Lili Simpson – The historical perspective is really important. The BLM arose from the Grazing Act. Access around here was built around water improvement or access to grazing lands. On the forest much more access was developed around recreation – up where the temperatures were cool. Recreation down here is a much more new idea.
I think some people are looking at the BLM land here and expecting it to be like other areas that have trails already developed on them. Comprehensive trail planning is a professional job. I’ve ridden the Bullion Trail, and it is a beautiful trail, but it comes down through an area that I suspect is Elk calving area, and it goes through private land. To build on private land is one thing, but then to hold the private property owner socially hostage if they decide to close it off is wrong. I think that is what some people do – they say, this is for the public good, why don’t you want us to go through here?
On the blogs a comment was made that John and Lori are very, very conservative. I would challenge you to go to other BLM Field Offices and find a more progressive BLM office. Go to Jarbidge, go to parts of Arizona where they have thousands of miles of unauthorized ATV trails.
Get some historic perspective, get some social perspective, and don’t shoot the messenger. John Kurtz is about the most forward thinking government employee I’ve seen. If you want to make a difference for trails, do so in a positive way. Is the trail you want part of the comprehensive planning the BLM and others have spent so much time and money developing?
Everyone talks about Fruita and how quickly those trails were developed. Those people down there were starving – a very economically deprived region. They didn’t have a recreating public, didn’t have nearly the recreation complexity that we have here. They also didn’t have a very responsive public, which we have here, which is why we are all here.
I’d encourage everyone to give your ideas to these land managers and do everything you can to do so in a positive manner.
Becki Keefer – City of Hailey – If you think this process of getting through NEPA is long, once you throw a city or county into the process it drags out exponentially.
The BLM may not have built new trails here, but the BLM has been a great partner with the City of Hailey. You may not be building yet but you are certainly the ones encouraging us to work with private property owners and to build our own comprehensive trail systems.
I’m the first one who wants to pick up her Pulaski and build more trails, but it just takes time. Even when there is permission and everyone is on the same page. Consider the Toe-of-the-Hill Trail. We are just in a holding pattern trying to get it run down to Bellevue. So there are so many factors to be balance – between the land managers, landowners, and us users. Never forget to look back and see how far we have come.Larry Schoen – The County Commissioners now hear from our area land managers on a regular basis. When Lori described the time line for the review and possible implementation of the County Rec. and Travel Plan I was somewhat taken aback. With all the urgency that so many of you came into our meetings regarding the travel plan – to make comment on it – and then with the Commissioners approving it and sending it back to Lori – I’m not surprised that the community is upset to hear that it could be 2010 before a decision comes down on it. I understand that many things have come down from higher up – things like energy, etc.
I think its important that we work extra hard at communication now. That is something that this group does a good job at, but I think perhaps the agencies can do a better job of it, and that is certainly something we will work harder on at the County level. If you know what is going on, if you know the time line you’re going to feel less impatient and in the dark.
I sense an opportunity here – the Building Materials Thrift Store supports the Wood River Land Trust in a big way. Maybe BWBT should consider putting together something similar – a sub group as a trail contractor. If these agencies pay good money to have trails built it could work to the benefit of the trails and this group.
Working with private property owners will get you so much further than rouging across their land without permission. Private land owners come and tell me, we want to work with people, we want to cooperate, and here are some parameters.
As far as the junk out in some of the drainages, I can tell you that the County has pursued numerous code violations regarding that. I will also tell you that the land owner who owns 900 acres of contiguous mining claims up Bullion has made it absolutely clear to me that he would like to work with the citizens of Hailey to develop recreation opportunities on his private land, and he has talked to the BLM and Forest Service about it. He wants controlled access and he is willing to discuss access. What he wants in return is an end to the unauthorized trail construction and an end to people vandalizing his property. He is interested in two-way cooperation and some understanding that his lands remain mining claims that could be reactivated. That is the reality now. Everyone in Idaho should be aware that as commodity prices reach certain levels some of these mining claims will be reactivated.
Meribeth Lomkin – Idaho Dept. of Lands – A really important part of this whole deal is to not burn the bridges with the land owners – that is key component to getting the linkages and connections that are going to be so important to making this into a useful trail system.
Dave Sundholm – It just gets frustrating that it all takes so long, and that is why people are building trails themselves.
Chris Klick – Larry and I are thinking the same way. This looks like a business model that someone could have success at making work. Wouldn’t it be something if you were able to take the money from the BLM to build trails and use it to speed up the NEPA process?
Our fund raising for BWBT has not been going great, and we need everyone to pitch in to make it work. So, if we can build a business that helps us pay for the NEPA process we are way ahead.
As far as it being frustrating and taking a long time – we are paying it back for what we have already been able to enjoy. There is a continuum that needs to go on and we need to facilitate that – if not for ourselves then for outers.
Another thing – we have built something here that is unique. You won’t find other places where motorcyclists, hikers, horseback riders, and motorcyclists are leaving all of their baggage at the door and sitting down with property owners and land managers and hammering on these issues. Its why I’m here – its not about being out there using the trails, its about the group and seeing the bigger picture and what we can accomplish this way.
We should look at being a contractor. That is a win-win.
Ed Cannady – It can happen sooner than later – if the money is there to pay for some of these processes, and if you have this much community support, and if the private property owners buy into the process you can make much quicker progress. There are grants to help build trails, but there is not grant money to pay for NEPA and other planning. A private effort to pay for the planning will help get it done a lot faster.
Lori – We are going into the County Travel Plan and we are talking about 35 miles in the works. There is no reason that more miles of trail can’t be laid out and designed and be included into that document we are starting this fall. Look at the big picture, twenty years down the road, not one up every canyon. No question – we have the County Travel Plan in front of us that tells us what is appropriate and where different uses are appropriate. It looks at existing trails, existing roads. It can look at new things. There is no reason that this document that is coming up for us to review this fall can not look at more opportunities, but it has to be planned – not a trail up every drainage. It has to consider wildlife, cultural resources, and plant communities.
There does get to be a limit to how much can go into a document, but if the whole group can get together and say this is what we want included into the plan, go for it. Get it to us now.
Dave Sundholm – John, does the plan she is referring to include the trail from Rotarun to Kelly?
John – Yes, there are two trails from Rotarun - one from there to the Camp Creek/Wolftone saddle, and also from Richardson Summit, through Rotarun, and coming out at Rock Creek. I designed those remotely using maps and I would have liked to be out on the ground now verifying those – field-testing them, but I haven’t been able to do that work because I’ve been chasing after how to deal with this unauthorized trail.
I’m as much of a trail geek as anyone and am interested in looking at other options that I have been thinking about too. The County does have some money for implementation and additional planning. We can pay someone to go out and design some really good connectors that will fit in well with the County plan. We have talked about hiring Chris to go out and do it.
Lori – If you give me that in June of next year, and I’m already into the process of reviewing the plan, it’s going to be behind. The sooner I can get well-designed ideas the better off we are going to be.
John – The idea of comparing what we have here with the trails that have been developed in Fruita Colorado has been tossed around a little. Some have said that those trails got built fast, but it took a number of years to develop that system. I know the recreation planner in Fruita – the guy who built that system. It didn’t appear overnight. It began in 1988 and it was completed in 2005. They planned for it and it paid off – they now have a great trail system. It was worth doing it right and that is where we want to go – to spend the energy and time up front to get it done right.
Todd Byle – We understand that you are at a bit of a stumbling block now over unauthorized trail construction and the community’s frustration at the length of time some of the processes you need to follow take. These things have been building for years, it hasn’t all come to a head on your watch. To get you over this smaller hurdle, what do we need to do to clear your plate and help you get back on track?
John – The first thing would be for volunteers to step forward to rehab that trail. Then, the second thing would be to have volunteers go out with us to build the segments of new trail that have been approved. Third – once I’m freed up from the first two items - to work with Chris, and the County, and others to work on ideas for the trails proposals that can be included into the Co. Travel Plan.
Todd Byle – Is the decommissioning of this trail the beginning of us being able to build toward a future where we are going to have more permanent trail opportunities? Should we look at this as, “The sooner we get after the trail rehab, the sooner we will be able to get to work on new trails?’
John – Yes.
Chris Klick – The big problem that BWBT saw with the building of the unauthorized trail between Democrat and Bullion was how it impacted the private property owners and how that reflected on our trail community and how we would be able to work with them on trail development in the future. Where do we stand with the private property owners now?
John – That is a question for the private property owners. It goes back to showing respect for the private property and taking the time to knock on someone’s door and asking permission. It goes a long way if you take the time to seek property owners out to ask permission.
Chris Klick – It can be tough to know whose land we are on, but I imagine it would be wise to treat the lands we are on with respect and not build new trails.
John – We could stand to see an increased effort at education, increased signage, and posted maps - asking people to stay on trails, showing people where they are in relation to public versus private lands, encouraging people to close gates, and generally show respect for other people and other’s property.
Chris K – Just realizing that you might be on private property can be a useful thing to keep in mind.
Dave – I’ve talked to Dan Henry and his main concern isn’t with the trail users, it’s with the trouble makers who come out and tear up his stuff, litter, do drugs and the like. I’ve talked to Harry Rinker and other property owners who don’t have a problem with the recreationists.
Something that concerns me are the roads that are on the ground like Bullion to Narrow Gauge and Democrat to Deer Creek. Neither the Forest Service nor the BLM will recognize them what-so-ever - because they cross private property. They cross private land so they are closed – our hands are tied – we aren’t going to put it on our map and it doesn’t exist as far as we are concerned. These are important connectors – yes they do cross private land, but the trail system as a whole suffers greatly without those connections and links.
I’m frustrated that the Forest Service is looking at their map, and the BLM is looking at their map, and we as trail users are looking at the whole map. These connections are being neglected and the system as a whole suffers. We should be able to put in trails that make these connections complete – skirt around these private properties. But at the same time we have walked into a hornet’s nest, because now we have government agencies that have to cooperate with each other.
Joe Miczulski – FS Rec. Planner - Easements are the legal way to do it. There might be opportunities to get those donated to BWBT.
Chris Klick – Does BWBT start the process? Does the easement have start with the owner and go to the Forest Service, or how does that process work?
John Kurtz – Getting easements is difficult, but going through the development hearing process – that is a time that often presents opportunities to get easements. As a Federal agency we have to offer fail market price for an easement and we need to go through a full-blown EA.
Dave S – Would it be easier to just take a trail around the private property and get out of the landowner’s hair?
John Kurtz – That is what we are talking about here around Hailey – developments that are going to happen in the near future. So we have some golden opportunities. When you get further out the lands are less likely to be developed anytime soon. With the larger private property holdings, and the lay of the land, it is darned near impossible to design in a trail around those properties – in Bullion in particular. That is why when I designed the trail to go to Camp Creek I kept it down further on the slope - and on public and State lands. We still need to work with the State because it is nearly impossible to not cross State land to make that connection go.
Chris Klick – So, would it be easier for everyone if someone like Dave went to Dan Henry and ask him for an easement?
Dan Henry – Private property owner - I don’t want to give an easement. I want to mine that property someday.
Chris K – Dan, I didn’t know you were here or I wouldn’t have talked as if you weren’t.
Dan – I came in late.
Chris Klick – We’ve been discussing how difficult it is to move through the bureaucratic maze and how difficult it can be to make progress on getting new, legal trails built. We have been discussion Narrow Gauge over to Bullion – is that private property yours?
Dan – Some of it – you come into different property owners.
Chris K. – Rather than me asking you for permission to build a trail on your property, would it be better for me to ask you – what would work best for you?
Dan – You’re not too far off from what I’ve been saying about this all along. I’ve said I would make accommodations, but that is a word that is not defined in the legal jargon here. I don’t believe in easements because that is a real taking, and I don’t think the BLM or Forest Service like easements anymore than I do. I do want to mine that someday, and if I come to an accommodation someday, maybe that accommodation has to get moved.
I believe in recreation. I want to see open space recreation. I want to earn money by open space recreation. Just like the Sun Valley Co. uses Forest Service land to earn money. I believe in encouraging tourism. I believe in overnighting in yurts. I believe in some things that perhaps some County Commissioners say they don’t want out there. I believe in selling propane and Coca-cola.
I believe in accommodations and I want mine, and I want people to understand that when they start putting in subdivisions that should not preempt the traditional use of this property. The roads were put in my miners; traditionally, miners have used these lands. The price of gold, I might point out, that when it hits $1500 an ounce, what are you going to do with all of the people who come up from Twin and Las Vegas and put in claims? What are you going to tell them? The County knows full well that they can’t do anything on State, BLM, or Forest lands when it comes to an un-patented claim. You’re going to have to worry first they are going to first have to change the 1872 law, and then how are they going to change it? They aren’t going to change it enough to keep Exxon out.
So there is a lot more to this. I believe in accommodations - and what does that mean? I have been telling Chris Leman that we should get together and I want to see a Yurt restaurant up on the top of Carbonate. I own the top of that. I want to see a challenging mountain bike trail up there where it goes over those little ridges, and someone is going to say, “We don’t want to see a mountain bike trail up there.” I think it would be nice to have one up there. I’m going to do something with the top of Carbonate. Maybe I’m going to mine it.
Chris Klick – We have been talking about how some of these trails have been built on private property – some that cross your land and we want to make this right. We want to be able to keep on riding and we want you guys happy that we are there. I think the way to do it is to meet with you – Chris has related some of the ideas you have. I think that recreational users working with private landowners are one way for us to bypass the slow process that some feel takes too long.
Dan – The agencies are going to want to have a say in where they want to see things too.
Dave Sundholm – Say Dan makes accommodations and we build a nice trail through his property, but then it comes out on Forest Service or BLM land. That trail doesn’t do us any good if it doesn’t go anywhere, so the FS and the BLM have to work together.
Dan – May I make one more comment. The BLM has come up with plans for some great trails. Couldn’t you try to make those trails work first? Knowing that I am going to want to make accommodations, couldn’t you see if you can make those trails work first? Let them put their money where they have put their planning, get people out riding those trails. You don’t have to ride every canyon – this year. There is a whole bunch more you can do and prove that you can keep these things in shape and clean. Then we could start with a leadership group and we could talk and start making a little thing and perhaps it would start out as semi-exclusive and who knows you might be able to convince the Forest Service or the BLM that something else might work.
I would recommend that you stick with their trails. They went through a lot of trouble to get these trails down. That’s a lot of riding.
Dave S – My concern is a connection into Deer Creek - and the BLM or FS doesn’t address it.
Dan – I’m not interested in opening that up right away, I might open that up for individuals. I’ve been everything from screamed at to shot at and I’ve had it. Opening that up sets a precedent that I’m not ready for. Your general public is not in this room tonight. Your general public is not generally nice and polite.
Chris Leman – I think some of what the BLM is addressing in this planning is a connection from the loop five over up to Wolftone on public land. I think we do have the potential to make that connection with the planning that the FS and BLM are working on. Lets focus on those plans and helping to make them happen. Lets enter into discussions with Dan Henry and Jay Sevy and the owners of Democrat Ranch, but lets get going with the BLM’s plans.
Joe Miczulski – FS Recreation Planner - We have been discussing these connections with the BLM. We just completed our travel planning process for the Ketchum Ranger District – for the “G” areas that have previously allowed cross-country travel. We discussed with John the connections between Deer Creek and Bullion and Driveway Gulch in the Cove Creek area, and other areas south of there that would require BLM approval in order to make connections. So, we talk.
Lori – There is a whole lot of State land in these areas too – and that is a whole different set of circumstances.
Meribeth Lomkin – Idaho Dept of Lands – Recreation is not our mission. We are not public land – we are much more like private property.
Ed Cannady – Boise and their Ridge to Rivers Program is likely a good example that we could learn from. David Gordon played a key role in the formation of BWBT. We could learn some lessons from their programs because they have a lot of State and Federal lands mixed in with the foothills. Tim Burr is the gentleman who started that outfit and between him and David we could learn a lot.
John Kurtz – I’ve talked to Tim and Dave and believe it or not many of the trails over there cross private property and do not involve easements – they are accommodations. Realize the complexity of it and that things can go away.
Ed – I want to say what a great asset to the south valley John Kurtz is. The south valley may think it is getting short changed by the BLM, but let me tell you that the community is getting a tremendous amount from John. Sorry Lori, but if we could steal John away to come work on the SNRA we surely would.
Lori – You better not! If anyone wants things to move forward they better help me keep John here, because he is so important to making all this work.
John – Keep in mind that when I came into this position things in Hailey were taking off – demand for recreation was really taking off then too. There are great opportunities here now.
Todd – Dan’s concerns are addressed in many ways by recreation – our passive passing through of private property helps control some of the undesirable effects he sees happening on his property.
Dan – If I do grant accommodations, believe me, you are going to need to take an active roll. I don’t like drugs and I don’t like punk kids and believe me I’ve see too much of it out there.
The discussion continued with comments and questions about how BWBT could become involved in contracting trail construction projects, or how BWBT could enter into some type of partnerships with others like using Northwest Youth Corp or other hand crews and not putting it out to contract. We briefly discussed how using volunteers can have advantages over using contracts, and vies versa.
John – We have put together a contract and while I don’t want to say that we are beyond the point where we can’t go back, I do feel we should focus on the 2.5 miles that aren’t part of the bid package. Lets go out there and build those miles of trail and see how it goes.
Lets pick a date to rehab the trail between Democrat and Bullion. If arrows are to be shot because of the decommissioning of that trail they should be directed at the BLM, not BWBT. And if BWBT doesn’t want to help rehabilitate the trail that is understandable and we will handle organizing the work.
Chris L – We want to help. I’m out of town on vacation this coming week so if others would like to spearhead the effort I’m all for that.
Travis Zerba – How soon do you want to get it done?
John K. – Anytime after the 4th of July weekend would work.
Travis and Todd agreed to lead the organizing of the volunteers for this effort. The effort will take place on Saturday, July 12.